Chrysler Town and country problems
The Chrysler Town & Country is a minivan that was manufactured and marketed by Chrysler from 1990 to the 2016 model years. The third Chrysler minivan introduced in North America, the Town & Country adopted its nameplate from the flagship Chrysler station wagon line, adopting its exterior woodgrain trim as a design feature for several generations.
Marketed as the flagship of the Chrysler minivan line, five generations of the Town & Country were slotted above the extended-wheelbase Dodge Grand Caravan and Plymouth Grand Voyager. For 2017, Chrysler retired the nameplate, with sixth-generation Chrysler-division minivans becoming the Chrysler Pacifica. After the 2016 model year, Chrysler marked the sale of its 12 millionth minivan (under all three nameplates). Produced almost continuously for 75 years (with the exception of World War II and 1989), the Town & Country nameplate is the longest-produced Chrysler; its longevity is second only to the Chevrolet Suburban in worldwide automotive history.
Chrysler assembled the first three generations of the model line in its Saint Louis Assembly facility (Fenton, Missouri). The fourth and fifth-generation Town & Country were produced by Chrysler Canada by Windsor Assembly (Windsor, Ontario).
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Chrysler Town and country model years
Common Chrysler Town and country problems
The Chrysler Town and Country, a popular minivan, has had several issues over the years, based on complaints from owners. These problems range from electrical issues to engine problems and blind spot detection faults.
Electrical issues are the most reported problem with the Chrysler Town and Country, particularly in the 2010 and 2011 models. Some of the electrical problems include stalling while driving, defective TIPM, and draining battery. These issues can lead to expensive repairs and can also cause inconvenience in everyday life, leading to lateness or even dangerous situations.
Engine problems are another major issue with the Chrysler Town and Country. These problems are especially prevalent in the 2010, 2008, and 2012 models. Some of the most significant engine problems include the engine shutting down while driving, the engine not turning over, and the engine light staying on. These issues can be expensive to fix and can also lead to dangerous situations on the road.
Blind spot detection faults are another problem with the Chrysler Town and Country, particularly in the 2012 model. This issue can be one of the most dangerous, as it can lead to deadly accidents.
In summary, the Chrysler Town and Country has had several issues over the years, particularly in the 2010, 2011, and 2012 models. These issues include electrical problems, engine problems, and blind spot detection faults. It is essential to be aware of these issues when considering purchasing a Chrysler Town and Country.
What years are bad for Chrysler Town and Country?
Here are the worst years for the Chrysler Town and Country:
- 2005 Chrysler Town and Country.
- 2008 Chrysler Town and Country.
- 2010 Chrysler Town and Country.
- 2011 Chrysler Town and Country.
- 2012 Chrysler Town and Country.
- 2014 Chrysler Town and Country.
Is Chrysler Town and Country reliable?
Chrysler Town & Country Reliability Rating Breakdown. The Chrysler Town & Country Reliability Rating is 3.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 4th out of 8 for minivans. The average annual repair cost is $636 which means it has average ownership costs.
What goes wrong with Chrysler Town and Country?
Electrical problems are the most reported problem that arises with the Chrysler Town and Country. This fault was especially prominent in the 2010 and 2011 models of the vehicle. Some of the electrical problems include: Stalling while driving.
Do Chrysler Town and Country have transmission problems?
Chrysler Town & Country / Dodge Grand Caravan
The transmissions in these corporate siblings have been the topic of several Technical Service Bulletins (TSB). The issues include rough shifting, slipping gears, delayed engagement, and shuddering while driving.
Percentage distribution of complaints by Chrysler Town and country years
We have researched Chrysler problems and analysed all the complaints filed against Chrysler Town and country cars and compiled the top 5 most problematic Chrysler Town and country model years:
- Chrysler Town and country 2011
- Chrysler Town and country 2013
- Chrysler Town and country 2012
- Chrysler Town and country 2014
- Chrysler Town and country 2001
Below you can see the percentage distribution of known problems by Chrysler Town and country model years.
Distribution of the number of complaints by Chrysler Town and country years
We've also compiled a chart for you with the number of complaints about Volkswagen Jetta cars of certain model years:
Chrysler Town and country car problems categorized by type of issue
After analysing all complaints related to Chrysler Town and country , it was concluded that the most common issues with these cars are:
- Electrical system problems
- Engine problems
- Power train problems
- Unknown or other problems
- Air bags problems
The graph below shows statistics for all Chrysler Town and country vehicle components and the number of complaints received.
Distribution of the number of complaints where the accident occurred by Town and country model years
A total of 94 complaints were registered in which the accident occurred. In the graph you can see the distribution of the number of complaints by model year.
Distribution of the number of complaints with fire by Town and country model years
There were a total of 58 complaints that resulted in a fire. In the graph you can see the distribution of the number of complaints by model year.
Distribution of the number of complaints with injuries by Town and country model years
There were a total of 191 complaints that resulted in a injuries. In the graph you can see the distribution of the number of complaints by model year.
Distribution of the number of complaints with deaths by Town and country model years
There were a total of 4 complaints that resulted in a death. In the graph you can see the distribution of the number of complaints by model year.
The NHTSA has received 3990 complaints about various vehicle components related to the Chrysler Town and country . Below are the 25 most recent complaints reported for Chrysler Town and country vehicles.
Latest 25 complaints
Chrysler Town and country 2015
- Date Of Incident: 2024-10-22
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-22
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG8FR
- Components: POWER TRAIN
- Summary: The contact owns a 2015 Chrysler Town and Country. The contact stated while driving at an undisclosed speed, the vehicle stalled. There was no warning light illuminated. The vehicle was towed to an independent mechanic where it was diagnosed and determined that the transmission pump had failed and needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The dealer was not contacted. The vehicle was not diagnosed or repaired. The manufacturer was made aware of the failure. The failure mileage was not available.
Chrysler Town and country 2014
- Date Of Incident: 2024-10-04
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-20
- VIN: 2C4RC1CG3ER
- Components: ENGINE
- Summary: cylinder 2 codes out. Check engine light on. The check engine light, came on 2 weeks ago and has not gone out. Van shakes a little bit, when in low RPM and sitting at lights. It has been confirmed by independent mechanic.
Chrysler Town and country 2014
- Date Of Incident: 2024-09-01
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-15
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG7ER
- Components: TIRES
- Summary: The contact owns a 2014 Chrysler Town and Country. The contact stated that while driving at unknown speeds, the TPMS indicator light was turning on and off. The contact stated that the failure was related to NHTSA Campaign Number: 14V632000 (Tires). The local dealer was contacted, but the vehicle was not diagnosed or repaired. The manufacturer was contacted and opened a case. The manufacturer referred the contact to the NHTSA hotline. The failure mileage was approximately 128,000.
Chrysler Town and country 2016
- Date Of Incident: 2024-08-23
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-15
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG8GR
- Components: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM,ENGINE
- Summary: while i was driving the van started acting like i was driving a stick shift car. stalling out . Now the car jumps and wants to turn off when I'm reversing or trying to drive. It feels like i am driving a stich shift car and cant get out of first gear.
Chrysler Town and country 2014
- Date Of Incident: 2024-10-12
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-12
- Number Of Injuries: 1
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG5ER
- Components: UNKNOWN OR OTHER
- Summary: Headrest on driver side exploded on 10/12/2024. I was reclining in the seat when it happened. Forced my head forward.
Chrysler Town and country 2014
- Date Of Incident: 2014-01-01
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-11
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG5ER
- Components: SEATS
- Summary: Seat release for the middle right seat does not work when the seat release lever is pushed up. Failed more than 3 years ago. Prior owner did not disclose the problem.
Chrysler Town and country 2015
- Date Of Incident: 2024-10-03
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-10
- VIN: 2C4RC1CG2FR
- Components: POWER TRAIN
- Summary: On interstate 95 I was on the on ramp and tried to accelerate and merge onto the highway the rpms went way up and the vehicle slowed down and has no acceleration leaving me in the path of a tractor trailer who honked his horn and barely missed me. I limped to the shoulder got a toe trk to row it to a repair facility. I was told the tranmission pump had gone out and that there was a recall for these transmissions
Chrysler Town and country 2011
- Date Of Incident: 2021-05-01
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-01
- VIN: 2A4RR8DG8BR
- Components: STEERING,ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING,STRUCTURE
- Summary: The contact owns a 2011 Chrysler Town and Country. The contact stated that while her husband was driving at an undisclosed speed, the window glass fell into the door abruptly. A mechanic inspected the vehicle and determined that the failure occurred due to an internal door fracture. The vehicle was not repaired. The contact stated while driving and turning the steering wheel, the steering wheel made an abnormally loud squealing sound. Additionally, the contact stated that the vehicle had difficulty starting, and there was an abnormal amount of smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe. The check engine warning light and the electronic throttle control warning light were illuminated. An unknown dealer was notified of the failure. The vehicle was not diagnosed or repaired. The manufacturer was not notified of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 174,098.
Chrysler Town and country 2016
- Date Of Incident: 2024-06-28
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-01
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG9GR
- Components: POWER TRAIN
- Summary: The contact owns a 2016 Chrysler Town and Country. The contact stated while driving at an undisclosed speed, the vehicle was unable to shift out of first gear, failing to exceed 30 MPH. There were no warning lights illuminated. The vehicle was taken to an independent mechanic, who diagnosed failures with the transmission and torque converter. The vehicle was repaired. The manufacturer was not notified of the failure. The failure mileage was 139,000.
Chrysler Town and country 2013
- Date Of Incident: 2023-07-10
- Date Complaint: 2024-10-01
- VIN: 2C4RC1CG4DR
- Components: STEERING,SERVICE BRAKES,ENGINE
- Summary: The contact owns a 2013 Chrysler Town and Country. The contact stated while driving at an undisclosed speed, the vehicle lost motive power. The brake pedal was depressed; however, the vehicle failed to stop as intended. Additionally, the vehicle lost power steering functionality and the vehicle became difficult to steer. The contact stated that the failure occurred while driving uphill on a very narrow street. The contact was able to shift the vehicle into park, while using both feet to depress the brake pedal. The vehicle was stopped, and the contact turned off the vehicle. The contact stated that her four-year-old granddaughter was a passenger in the vehicle and the situation was very scary. The contact waited for several minutes, before restarting the vehicle. The vehicle was driven to the residence. The vehicle was not diagnosed or repaired by an independent mechanic or the dealer. The contact stated that the failure had occurred several times and the vehicle had been taken to an independent mechanic several times; however, the failure was not duplicated. The manufacturer was not made aware of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 99,000.
Chrysler Town and country 2015
- Date Of Incident: 2024-08-30
- Date Complaint: 2024-09-28
- VIN: 2C4RC1BGXFR
- Components: SEATS
- Summary: Minivan was parked in our driveway and we heard a loud bang. The driver side headrest had spontaneously sprung open. Van has never been in an accident.
Chrysler Town and country 2013
- Date Of Incident: 2024-08-23
- Date Complaint: 2024-09-25
- VIN: 2C4RC1CG6DR
- Components: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
- Summary: The contact owns a 2013 Chrysler Town & Country. The contact stated that while starting the vehicle, the "Accessory On" light illuminated, and the starter made an abnormal grinding sound. The contact stated that several attempts were needed to start the vehicle. The contact stated that the failure occurred several times per week and several times during the same day. The contact had not taken the vehicle to a local dealer or independent mechanic. The vehicle was not diagnosed or repaired. The manufacturer was not informed of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 144,000.
Chrysler Town and country 2015
- Date Of Incident: 2024-09-20
- Date Complaint: 2024-09-21
- VIN: 2C4RC1GG4FR
- Components: UNKNOWN OR OTHER
- Summary: The driver's side, sliding door will not open manually or (using automatic) from inside of vehicle or outside of vehicle, or with the remote key. Door is stuck closed like it's jammed. I am very careful with my doors, and tell everyone not to slam them hard. I don't trust this doors safety.
Chrysler Town and country 2016
- Date Of Incident: 2023-10-28
- Date Complaint: 2024-09-19
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG5GR
- Components: POWER TRAIN
- Summary: The contact owns a 2016 Chrysler Town and Country. The contact stated while driving 40-50 MPH, the vehicle unintendedly decelerated, and the vehicle failed to exceed 30 MPH while depressing the accelerator pedal. The contact was unsure whether a warning light was illuminated. The contact pulled into a parking lot and the vehicle was towed to the residence. The vehicle was test driven by an independent mechanic. The mechanic determined that the transmission pump had failed and needed to be replaced. An unknown dealer was notified of the failure and informed the contact that the VIN was not included in NHTSA Campaign Number: 16V461000 (Power Train). The vehicle was not repaired. The manufacturer was notified of the failure. The failure mileage was approximately 165,000.
Chrysler Town and country 2015
- Date Of Incident: 2024-08-15
- Date Complaint: 2024-09-16
- VIN: 2C4RC1BG2FR
- Components: UNKNOWN OR OTHER
- Summary: Driver side rear sliding door lock doesn't work. The door makes a loud buzzing noise and does not unlock. The door can be unlocked manually with force. There is already a manufacturer recall for this exact same condition and part, but doesn't cover my car. My car was built 72 days prior to the start of the covered equipment, but is showing the exact same issues as those covered.
Latest 5 recalls Chrysler Town and country
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has issued 178 recalls for different components of the Chrysler Town and country.You can explore the year of the Volkswagen Jetta you are interested in by selecting it from the list.
- Model: Chrysler Town and country 2008
- Report Received Date: 2020-07-07
- Manufacturer: Chrysler (FCA US LLC)
- Components: AIR BAGS:FRONTAL:DRIVER SIDE:INFLATOR MODULE
- Summary: Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling certain 2008-2010 Chrysler Town and Country and Dodge Grand Caravan and 2007-2011 Dodge Nitro vehicles. These vehicles may have a loose or missing brand emblem in the center of the steering wheel. The loose emblem or the securing nuts for the emblem within the driver air bag module may become projectiles in the event of a driver air bag deployment.
- Consequence: Projectiles as a result of driver air bag deployment in the event of a crash can increase the risk of injury.
- Remedy: Chrysler will notify owners, and dealers will replace the driver's air bag cover with a redesigned cover, free of charge. The recall began February 11, 2021. Owners may contact FCA US LLC customer service at 1-800-853-1403. Chrysler's number for this recall is W09.
- Model: Chrysler Town and country 2010
- Report Received Date: 2020-07-07
- Manufacturer: Chrysler (FCA US LLC)
- Components: AIR BAGS:FRONTAL:DRIVER SIDE:INFLATOR MODULE
- Summary: Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling certain 2008-2010 Chrysler Town and Country and Dodge Grand Caravan and 2007-2011 Dodge Nitro vehicles. These vehicles may have a loose or missing brand emblem in the center of the steering wheel. The loose emblem or the securing nuts for the emblem within the driver air bag module may become projectiles in the event of a driver air bag deployment.
- Consequence: Projectiles as a result of driver air bag deployment in the event of a crash can increase the risk of injury.
- Remedy: Chrysler will notify owners, and dealers will replace the driver's air bag cover with a redesigned cover, free of charge. The recall began February 11, 2021. Owners may contact FCA US LLC customer service at 1-800-853-1403. Chrysler's number for this recall is W09.
- Model: Chrysler Town and country 2009
- Report Received Date: 2020-07-07
- Manufacturer: Chrysler (FCA US LLC)
- Components: AIR BAGS:FRONTAL:DRIVER SIDE:INFLATOR MODULE
- Summary: Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling certain 2008-2010 Chrysler Town and Country and Dodge Grand Caravan and 2007-2011 Dodge Nitro vehicles. These vehicles may have a loose or missing brand emblem in the center of the steering wheel. The loose emblem or the securing nuts for the emblem within the driver air bag module may become projectiles in the event of a driver air bag deployment.
- Consequence: Projectiles as a result of driver air bag deployment in the event of a crash can increase the risk of injury.
- Remedy: Chrysler will notify owners, and dealers will replace the driver's air bag cover with a redesigned cover, free of charge. The recall began February 11, 2021. Owners may contact FCA US LLC customer service at 1-800-853-1403. Chrysler's number for this recall is W09.
- Model: Chrysler Town and country 2017
- Report Received Date: 2018-08-09
- Manufacturer: Chrysler (FCA US LLC)
- Components: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:WIRING:FRONT UNDERHOOD
- Summary: Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling certain 2018 Jeep Renegade, Compass and Grand Cherokee, RAM 1500 and Promaster, Fiat 500x, Dodge Journey, Challenger, Charger and Durango and Chrysler 300x vehicles, 2017-2018 Jeep Wrangler, Dodge Grand Caravan and Chrysler Town and Country vehicles and 2018-2019 Jeep Cherokee and 2018 Chrysler Pacifica and Pacifica Hybrid vehicles. The powertrain control module may be equipped with a voltage regulator chip in the circuit board that may fail, causing a stall or a no start condition.
- Consequence: A vehicle stall can increase the risk of a crash.
- Remedy: Chrysler will notify owners, and dealers will replace the powertrain control module, free of charge. The recall began October 2, 2018. Owners may contact Chrysler customer service at 1-800-853-1403. Chrysler's number for this recall is U87.
- Model: Chrysler Town and country 2014
- Report Received Date: 2017-12-21
- Manufacturer: Chrysler (FCA US LLC)
- Components: EQUIPMENT
- Summary: Chrysler (FCA US LLC) is recalling various Dodge, Chrysler, and RAM vehicles equipped with Kidde Plastic-Handle or Push Button 'Pindicator' Fire Extinguishers. A list of the affected trailer models is available at: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RMISC-17V824-0103.pdf. These extinguishers may become clogged, preventing the extinguisher from discharging as expected or requiring excessive force to activate the extinguisher. Additionally, in certain models, the nozzle may detach from the valve assembly with enough force that it could cause injury and also render the product inoperable. For a full list of the affected fire extinguisher models visit: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RMISC-17E062-5427.pdf
- Consequence: If the fire extinguisher does not function properly, it can increase the risk of injury in the event of a fire.
- Remedy: Chrysler will notify owners instructing them to contact Kidde for a replacement fire extinguisher, free of charge. The recall began February 14, 2018. Owners may contact Chrysler customer service at 1-800-853-1403 or Kidde customer service service toll-free at 1-855-262-3540, or online at www.kidde.com and click on "Product Safety Recall" for more information. Chrysler's number for this recall is T82.
Latest negative Chrysler Town and country car reviews
Latest positive Chrysler Town and country car reviews
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Vehicle year: 2010
Hello! As a GM retiree and GM buyer, I have owned 3 GM mini vans and I must say, I really like them. However, I was disappointed to find out that GM doesn't make mini vans anymore. Nevertheless, I refused to buy a foreign car and ended up purchasing a Town & Country. I was hesitant at first due to the reviews, but it turned out to be the best vehicle I have owned in a long time! The interior is great, with nice soft leather that makes long trips comfortable. I was able to get an average of 25 mpg on the highway, with a high of 27 on 2 separate trips. I traded in my 09 GMC Acadia, which had lousy mileage and was tough to get in and out of. Thank you for taking the time to read my review!
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Vehicle year: 1995
Hi there! I just wanted to let you know that I still own this vehicle and it has been a great ride so far. With its 6 cyl. engine, the mileage is pretty decent. I did have to have the transmission rebuilt about 4 years ago, but it has been running smoothly ever since. Unfortunately, the exterior coating/paint on the hood, bumper, and mirrors has started to peel, but everything else on this vehicle has held up really well.
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Vehicle year: 2004
After conducting thorough research, we decided to purchase the T and C instead of the Toyota Sienna. Not only did we save money, but we were also able to get all the features we wanted without having to wait. We are extremely satisfied with our decision and have no regrets. The T and C is not only aesthetically pleasing, but it also provides a smooth ride, great climate control, ample sound system, and comfortable seats. Although we do not have fold-down 3rd row seats, the removable seats are more comfortable than what we saw in fold-down seat versions. Overall, we are very happy with our purchase.
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Vehicle year: 2005
I bought my Town & Country used for $600 with 160,000 miles on it. Now, it has 205,000 miles and I must say, it has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. It is easy to work on yourself if you have a little car knowledge, and after making a few minor repairs myself, it now rides like a brand new car. Although it may not look great, it drives awesome. The only issue I have encountered is the rust that accumulates at the bottom of the back sliding doors, which seems to be a common problem for these cars. If you are considering buying a used 2005 Town and Country, I would definitely recommend it!
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Vehicle year: 2014
I have owned a 2003 Town and Country for 14 years, so I decided to go with another one. I got a 2014 30th Anniversary model, which has some great advantages over the old girl. It has a back-up camera and sensors, rear cross-traffic sensors, blind spot sensors, improved acceleration and braking, a great turning radius, stow-n-go seats, sliding doors that are much improved, keyless entry, and remote start. However, there are some disadvantages. The frame below the front doors hits me right on the ankle bone when I get in and out, which is aggravating. The transmission shifting is a little rougher, and I can hear a bearing noise when driving, which might mean a rebuild down the road. It seems to have more road noise than my 2003 T&C, and the sound system is definitely not as good. My biggest gripe are the tires. They are honestly one of the worst tires I've had on any vehicle I've owned. Braking is great as long as it's on dry pavement. If you have to take off quickly from a stop, I chirp or spin the tires almost every time, even when trying not to. They are horrible on rainy roads, and I am not looking forward to winter. We'll be changing them hopefully to Bridgestone Turanza before winter if they have them in the new size. If not, we will still change them, they're that bad. Unfortunately, the dealership won't do anything to help with the running boards or the tires.
Are you having problems with your Chrysler Town and country?
Pierre Ortiz 2025-04-19
Vehicle year: 2008
If you are not familiar with minor repairs such as changing engine parts and brakes, it can lead to a lot of problems. In such cases, it is better to have a good amount of money to pay the mechanic shop. I had a bad experience with Chrysler and similar brands like Dodge, which have Chrysler engine and transmission. Therefore, I am planning to buy a Toyota or Honda minivan for my next vehicle. It is always a good idea to do your homework and compare before making a purchase. Also, make sure to check out the details and reviews of the vehicle you are interested in.
Mariano Goyette 2025-04-17
Vehicle year: 2004
I am sorry to hear about the issues you have been experiencing with your 03 LXi. It must have been frustrating to have to take it to the shop so many times. I hope that the brand new transmission will solve the problem for good. It is disappointing to have to deal with issues like the belt tensioner and weather stripping as well. Despite these problems, I understand that you appreciate the design of the car. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
Austen Deckow 2025-04-16
Vehicle year: 2013
Our 2013 Town & Country van has been a great vehicle in many ways. However, we have noticed an irritating noise coming from the transmission caused by a redesign in the square cut gears. Unfortunately, Chrysler has not yet found a solution to this issue. Despite this, the dealership has informed us that this is a common issue with new vans on their lot. Although the noise has become more persistent and louder since we first noticed it (7200 miles now), we have been assured that it is still drivable. If we had known about this issue beforehand, we may have considered other vehicles. Thank you for your understanding.
Ubaldo Schaden 2025-04-14
Vehicle year: 1997
As a concerned citizen who cares about the quality of products, I must say that my experience with Chrysler has been disappointing. Unfortunately, I have faced several issues with my car, including leaks, defects, and the need for multiple replacements. Despite my efforts to address these problems, I have not received the support I expected from Chrysler. As a result, I am now considering other options such as the Sienna or Odyssey. I hope that my feedback can help improve the quality of Chrysler's products in the future.
Dee Tremblay 2025-04-12
Vehicle year: 1999
The first two years of ownership were fantastic with no issues at all. However, in the third year with around 38k miles on it, things started to change. Unfortunately, since then, a few things have gone wrong with the van. These include the transmission, struts, idler pulley, heated seat, thermostat, catalytic converter, radiator fan relay, and rotors. Thankfully, I had the foresight to purchase a 100k extended warranty for it, which has already paid for itself twice over.